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John Zogby: It's Friday, December 13th. And this is another edition of the Zogby Report. Real and unscripted. And it really is real and unscripted. I'm here with my son, my managing partner. Jeremy Zogby. How you doing?
Jeremy Zogby: Hey, I'm looking forward to another unscripted conversation.
John Zogby: Well, I've come up with this and you know, we're going to dip our toes into some real controversy today. There's so much going on. Could have chosen any one of a number of items, but I want to talk about Luigi Mangione.
Jeremy Zogby: Mm
John Zogby: The alleged shooter of UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson. A very strange situation, a very sad situation. And we'll remind ourselves and remind viewers that he's innocent [00:01:00] until proven guilty on one hand. On the other hand, the grand jury, as we speak, is considering facts. Towards an indictment of him because as evidence continues in and continues to pile in, it's very compelling evidence and at least, I guess, according to experts, worthy of an indictment. At least he'll get his chance for a trial. But with that said a man, a father a ceo was gunned down outside the Hilton Hotel in Manhattan is now dead, and that is extremely sad at the same time. It is not only sparked a debate. It has sparked a public reaction like one that we've probably never seen before. Actual United Healthcare and other organizations. It's not just a matter of [00:02:00] Health insureds, if not actually cheering Luigi Mangione on at least expressing no sympathy. For Brian Thompson, and this is not a few, you know, at last count, I saw 76, 000 likes for those initial reactions those kinds of reactions, but it continues and a colleague of mine just this morning in a zoom said that she was praying with Catholic nuns this morning who work with the poor. And they were saying without mincing words at all, that what this young man has done, though we condemn the violence, but what this young man has done has sparked a conversation that is long overdue. And I would end [00:03:00] this phase of my comments by saying that. The chairman of the board of United Healthcare issued a statement just this morning, or at least we saw it just this morning, in which he condemned the killing, praised CEO Thompson but said, look, we hear the message and we're going to engage in some fixes for people are demanding and wow, you know, is this what it takes? Is this good coming from evil? Is this the way we want to have things done? You know, I've used the phrase many times cause I learned it. And I went to Catholic school, St. Teresa of Avila, God writes straight with crooked lines. This was a murder. And now we have a debate [00:04:00] and perhaps we'll have reform. I'm sorry. spring that on you like that. But I'm really in a quandary about all of this. Help me out. What do you think?
Jeremy Zogby: Well, you know, I, I'm, I think you helped me out because I, I was puzzled myself. I think the first thing I want to ask is I, I'm going to assume, because I haven't seen any polls, right?
Jeremy Zogby: And, you know, quite frankly, I wouldn't really want to poll, but I'm curious to know support sympathy.
Jeremy Zogby: I look, I'm sure it's low, but that low number still would probably be not good, but without seeing any data and because you always have to be skeptical of social media likes and who are these people and all of that. But let's just assume yeah. That there is there's a fan club and it's disturbing, but my, my first reaction is [00:05:00] where's the, where, where's, where's the, you know, for, for the, for Generation Z and Millennials, where's our Martin Luther King, where's our Gandhi, where's our you know, where's, where's our, Our civil rights leader non nonviolent protesting boycotting.
Jeremy Zogby: Those were the tools that really could could change something. This just puts us closer to a Mad Max scenario where the, you know, the media obsession and coverage of the story sends a signal that this guy's like an anti hero. What do I mean by that? You know, a great analogy would be the movie Taxi Driver.
Jeremy Zogby: I've watched the movie several times because I, I always just felt that there was a lot of cultural critique. But, you know, Travis [00:06:00] Bickle, who's a guy who's on the brink of insanity and a, and a romance gone bad throws him over the edge. Who has all this self righteousness as he's driving around the city commenting on pimps and prostitutes saying that someday a storm is going to wash the scum away.
Jeremy Zogby: Here's a guy who goes on a murderous rampage. And at the end of the movie, there's a, there's a scene which, which is actually just Travis Bickle imagining, you know, that he's a hero. It's, it's, it's not real. But what happens is, is, you know, here the guy is, he's arrested. But in, in the last clip of the movie, He, he gets back into the car and he's, he's the taxi driver again, and there's this romantic music in the background.
Jeremy Zogby: And he picks up Sybil Shepherd, the woman he fell in love with. And she's just, you know, all about him. And that was a commentary in the late seventies about, you know, whoever wrote and made that movie, that we were heading towards this culture that, [00:07:00] that praised the anti hero. Somebody who had the status of a hero who should not have had any status of a hero.
Jeremy Zogby: And it seems like the moral decay and there's a lot of these, you know, there's a lot of factors that go into that moral decay, has brought us to that realization. And I'm left wondering, where's our Gandhi? And where's our Martin Luther King, who, who are advocating for, you know, if you have a problem with vulture capitalism.
Jeremy Zogby: like many of us do. The way to bring down vulture capitalism is through the way Gandhi brought down the British Empire and the way MLK brought down the segregation in in, in Alabama.
John Zogby: Those are all really fascinating points. You know, for the record, this young man stood to inherit 100 million from his grandmother. There was a botched operation that has left him [00:08:00] permanently in pain and may have caused Some kind of brain damage that has put him off center, and I think very important to note that he was not a client of UnitedHealthcare at all. So this was a young man, apparently, who'd been radicalized in college and then further radicalized by either brain damage or something, but his friends say that he's He, he, he went off the rails. That's the one point, even his fellow prisoners where he's in car, incarcerated in Pennsylvania, somewhere are, are calling him a hero and advocating for better conditions while he's in a a holding cell. But I think the point that you make, you know, where is the Gandhi that takes years, you know, to develop. Although we're accustomed [00:09:00] these days to getting. Getting things deliberated more quickly and someone emerging as a star, either on social media or in rallies, you know, that interestingly didn't happen with Gaza, you know, that was kind of an amorphous mass.
John Zogby: There was no one vocal leader that that, that stood out during that. I believe also earlier black lives matter. I don't recall that there was any single force. of nature, one person that emerged. Here's an instance where it literally takes the firing of one gun and the emergence of, of the antihero. And frankly, I think your analogy to taxi driver is appropriate. Saw that movie in the seventies. And I remember the horrible funk, you know, that it, that put me in, this [00:10:00] is putting me in a funk. Yeah. as well. The health care system, the health insurance system is so broken. Look, people do get healed. It works for many, but for too many people, it doesn't work. And for too many people who, you know, visit a hospital have surgery, have inadequate or no health insurance, it doesn't work at all. And it's, it's clearly broken.
Jeremy Zogby: Yeah, I mean, I'll just say, and I'll look at it from, from the perspective of, of historical forces that there are, you know, a lot of the things that play are, and I've already brought up the, the vulture capitalist system. And, and by the way, I mean, I, I'm not, I don't have a problem with capitalism, but what, what has [00:11:00] become of the brand of capitalism is, is vulture capitalism, which is a system in which too large, too big, too overly privileged companies and not enough competition and not enough homegrown businesses become the champions of the day and they set the terms. They give you the service and they set the terms and it's not supposed to be that way. But then you have the backdrop of, of and, and, you know, this doesn't play into the case of man, Joan, because he was set to inherit millions and millions of dollars.
Jeremy Zogby: But that backdrop of the economic anxiety and the growing gap between the rich and the poor. Coupled with a moral decay in which there's, there, there are generations who are, are, you know, more and more kids who spend too much time on screens and [00:12:00] spend too much time immersed in, in in fantasy worlds of video games, violent video games.
Jeremy Zogby: And then one last thing, the overemphasis of ideology and, and, and ideology with intensity. Not even just your liberal, moderate, and conservative, but, but all encompassing ideologies that have taken the place of basic spirituality and civics.
Jeremy Zogby: And I think that that's a recipe for disaster.
John Zogby: I, I do too. And I think that's a not only worthy point, but I, I think that's a good closing point here. The fact that morality is based solely now on whether I agree or disagree with the perpetrator. And obviously that's troublesome and that's a broken system in, in and of itself. All right. Honestly, this is a tough, a very tough conversation. Those of you out there who do [00:13:00] follow us or maybe visiting us for the first time, help us out with this one. And Jer, how do they, how do they do that? Of course, we're on social media, but how do people respond to us?
Jeremy Zogby: Well, there's, there's comment sections in, in all of the, the channels, the various podcast goes live on. And that's Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud. And then if you go to our website and you go to the podcast button, there is the ability to leave a comment there. And so, yeah, I mean, we would like to hear the, you know, this is data in of itself.
Jeremy Zogby: The response to this conversation, and it would be intriguing to hear that qualitative data.
John Zogby: Okay. All right. Thanks. I'm not going to say Merry Christmas yet because I think we may very well be back next week. Take care. I'll talk to you later.
Jeremy Zogby: [00:14:00] Yep, have a great weekend.
John Zogby: You too.