John Zogby: [00:00:00] There are responsibilities that leaders have, and the responsibilities are, try. To steer the ship and try to make life better for people.

Jeremy Zogby: so powerful today is, and this is not new, pitting the population against each other in terms of left or right or whatever, but we are now seeing it alongside the hyperpolarization.

John Zogby: It is a huge global revolution. It is economic, it's governmental, it's political. It's NGO, everything. Are, our institutions capable of reigning in what new and faster and more dynamic technologies are going to bring?

John Zogby: It is Friday and welcome to another edition of Real Polling in Real Time with Zogby. And here we are, a couple of zogby again, I'm John. [00:01:00] And how are you today, jar? I

Jeremy Zogby: I'm doing pretty well. What's, what's on your mind?

John Zogby: Okay. I have to admit to you that I am flummoxed and. For those of us who remember, or those who had the opportunity to see old clips or read and think about President Reagan, at Normandy, Omaha Beach or after the Challenger, catastrophe, or in Berlin, and then move up to Bill Clinton. And his eloquence in Oklahoma City, soothing a people and a nation.

George w in New York after nine 11, certainly a high point [00:02:00] Barack Obama, it's, Sandy Hook and in Charleston where people were. shot up, killed babies in the president's word. And then I look at this week and I look at the shameful behavior. I've tried not to be partisan too much in these, but I look at the absolutely shameful behavior of President Trump.

And that's why I'm flummoxed. And I ask, is this what we want? Lemme just give you a litany. I just jotted down a few just. Minutes ago. I hate my opponents. I don't want the best for them. We need immigrants, especially those who are skilled in ai, the economy of the future. And we're going to charge a hundred thousand dollars for special [00:03:00] technical people to get H one B visas.

there is confusion. And contempt. Now over the issue of, Tylenol, we had a couple of other shootings and immediately either he or the vice president blame it on the left and instead of soothing the nation, he goes deeply partisan within minutes. there's confusion over Gaza. and confusion over Ukraine.

Where does he actually stand on each of these, particularly Ukraine? he goes before the United Nations, and he makes it a point to insult our allies in Europe and for that matter, the rest of the world, and to tell them that they're fools for [00:04:00] participating in efforts to reduce. carbon emissions, vengeance.

Let's loose. James Comey, former director of the FBI, is indicted for lying before Congress. The prosecutor in Virginia, the, US attorney quit. Because he could find no evidence other prosecutors in that office quit because they couldn't. The Attorney General, a loyalist, Pam Bondy, who the president said, I'm going to sick on my enemies, and came right out and said that she privately expressed concern that they weren't going to be able to have enough evidence against Comey.

And then finally he appoints a loyalist. right before the statute of limitations runs out [00:05:00] and, James Comey is indicted. John Bolton is next. is, this what we want? Permanent conflict? Permanent insults. Permanent mockery Is this leadership, is this Reagan at Omaha Beach? Is this Obama in Charleston?

It certainly isn't. for that matter, w and Clinton as well. I'm really troubled by this. I don't know that this is what the American people want. Now I'm cognizant of his polling barely moved. He's averaging about 45% approval, but 54% disapproval. But is that where we want the nation to be? Don't we want somebody who can rally more, excuse [00:06:00] me, more than 45% and not generate hostility among the other half?

Now look very critical of the Democrats. They haven't found their mojo. We'll talk about that later if you'd like, but for now, I'm just really troubled and puzzled. By the president.

Jeremy Zogby: Where do I begin? I, understand. Why you're flummoxed. But I think at the same time, just listening to our conversations and you've, said probably if I had to estimate at least few dozen times, so that would be a good 36 times over the past two or three years [00:07:00] that there's a revolution.

John Zogby: Yes.

Jeremy Zogby: Now, unfortunately, I think that term has been watered down. you look in history books and, there's a commercial revolution, an agricultural revolution, in an industrial revolution, French Revolution. is a revolution? Why? I mean something, the current order is appended, but I think. When you, when I hear you say revolution, at least the way I interpret it is we're on the brink of a political revolution and, something along the lines of the French Revolution and American Revolution. And make no mistake about it. What is the, mechanism or what are the conditions? And there was that great historical work. I forget who the author was. of a [00:08:00] Revolution. Who was

John Zogby: Crane Brenton. Yeah. Crane Brenton.

Jeremy Zogby: look, in every case, it's basically economic conditions

and usually it's inflationary conditions. hyperinflationary conditions. You get to a point where the, gap between the uber wealthy. person becomes so stark that the everyday person becomes angry. The difference, I think so powerful today is, and this is not new, pitting the population against each other in terms of left or right or whatever, dichotomies. That's not new, that's as old as, the Bible, but we are now seeing it alongside the hyperpolarization. I, I can. I can actually remember a time when I was a kid when, you would turn on the news and there weren't name calling. [00:09:00] Look, was it always propaganda? I'm sure, but it wasn't name calling. It at least felt like it was, you were getting the facts. It probably wasn't the truth, but it wasn't hyperpolarized, wasn't, downright nasty. And then somewhere between. Clinton to Bush, that all changed and then everything just became all their lunatics and all their nuts. And so everybody went to watch the channel to hear why the other side was crazy. And then around that same time, maybe, a decade later, I should say, with the Great recession, the wealth just started transferring more and more to the Uber wealthy, and now we're at a point where here's a stunning fact. Last I saw the average income was somewhere around 47, 40 $8,000. But you know what the reality is that because of the average of natures, the nature of averages, [00:10:00] those uber wealth or uber wealthy people, that the most wealthy people, billionaires and multi multimillionaires are raising that average.

John Zogby: Yeah.

Jeremy Zogby: if you were to remove the wealthiest of the wealthiest. It would probably fall to somewhere around 30 or $35,000. look at the cost of living. Look at what it costs to have a plumber come over to, to fix a broken toilet. Look at what it costs to come over and have your cement repaved look at what it costs to get eggs, and so people are angry because they're in a pressure cooker. and it makes them much more easily, makes those conditions make it much more easy to get people to at each other's throats. And a Trump comes along and he harnesses that, and he's not gonna be the last [00:11:00] one. There'll be others maybe who are smoother and, more polished. But make no mistake about it, they're gonna, they're gonna stoke the flame too. And so I think it's just this, we are at the beginning of something that are the historically right, the right conditions for something like a political revolution. And you and I have covered so many different angles of that, whether recently I talked about the fourth turning and that notion of generational cyclical history. here, we're analyzing the economic nature of it. the people's cost of living is going up and they can't keep up with it. And that happens to coincide with a political breakdown and all kinds of turmoil. And Trump is just a, just an, he's just a character that brings [00:12:00] maybe something new to it he's a crass talking billionaire president. But really at the end of the day. this is the stuff that's to be expected, breakdown of discourse and,

John Zogby: I get it. And you're right, I have talked about the huge revolution.

Jeremy Zogby: oh, let me say something.

John Zogby: Sure.

Jeremy Zogby: unique the first time is that this is going on globally,

John Zogby: Yeah.

Jeremy Zogby: and it has been for, since the Great Recession. But now, look at Nepal, look at Thailand, look at the uk, look at France. All of these countries have similar dynamics going on one, the, political, the opposing political parties are at each other's throats.

People are taking to the streets. So the, unique in 2025 is for it to go [00:13:00] global.

John Zogby: Absolutely. And there's so much to say. I'm just gonna boil it down to a few words and sentences. It is much larger. It is a huge global revolution. It is economic, it's governmental, it's political. It's NGO, everything. Are, our institutions capable of reigning in what new and faster and more dynamic technologies are going to bring?

people are scared, understandably, but for those who love to talk about the English Revolution as the bloodless revolution in the late 1680s. They forget that, Charles ii or Charles, the first, I'm sorry, was beheaded. And there was a period of the protector under Oliver Cromwell that was [00:14:00] discordant, disturbing, violent, France had its robes, vre, and I feel that's what we have right now.

We don't have a George Washington. We have a robes Pierre, we have a vi Lenin. We have someone who, is taking advantage of an ugly situation and making it worse. Remember, it's one thing to be a revolutionary and to be pounding on the door to let people in, to empower people. It's another thing to have been elected to lead.

And in Lincoln's famous words to find the better angels of our nature to help us all steer through this mess. And this was beyond rhetoric that we saw this past week. This was policy, and this was Donald [00:15:00] Trump, vengeful and insulting as much of the rest of the world as he possibly can. And for me, there are just no excuses.

For that big, broad revolution that we have, he still has a responsibility to lead and to try to make things better as opposed to fanning the flames and clearly making things worse. Now, I'm mindful of the fact that the economy grew by 3.8%, the last quarter, annualized. Very good sign. however, according to our colleagues at Gallup, the middle class is not feeling that, is the president not communicating something?

Is that 3.8% growth coming from the same group, the Bureau of [00:16:00] Labor Statistics, that brings us the unemployment. Rate that has been vilified by the president. So is this 3.8% growth? A bogus number? Presidents should not be Leaders, should not be fanning flames. Leaders should be healing and soothing and getting us through, a reduction of pain.

I'm old fashioned.

Jeremy Zogby: doing that anywhere. All the,

John Zogby: but we're talking here. This was not helpful.

Jeremy Zogby: Oh yeah. I know. But think the world over is being led by a ship of fools, you look at Europe, and the leadership in Europe are willing to take the entire continent, the entire continent to war with Russia.

That's my take in it. And I know they'll tell you, oh, [00:17:00] Russia crossed into Estonia and Poland and all. Oh yeah. NATO doesn't cross over into Russia. Are, you kidding me? Give me a break. How many, times is NATO provoked. last 30 years have been provoking Russia. Okay? And so you've got leadership in Europe who are willing to start World War iii.

in Israel, they're, bombing Qatar, who, used to be an ally, what are they gonna bomb next Saudi Arabia. the leadership, I'm not gonna say every world leader, but clearly. There, there is a global ship of fools. And, Donald Trump fits neatly in that.

he's very different because he's, brings a, he brings contention and, a, rage to it. But I, wouldn't, say, VO [00:18:00] and, Macron the guy in the UK are anything spectacular? these are, it's just a, I think what it is, the leadership is defunct. there is no leadership.

John Zogby: And I am gonna make excuses for the leadership because of this broad stormy revolution that is taking place, it's a very difficult position to right the ship. But there are responsibilities that leaders have, and the responsibilities are, try. To steer the ship and try to make life better for people.

And I believe that these policies, we haven't even talked about tariffs yet, but these policies, are, wrong. And the, overall [00:19:00] mood of vengeance and taking strong sides and of not healing is the wrong person at absolutely the wrong time. And maybe that's the title of this podcast, but I think that's about all I have to say.

You wanna finish?

Jeremy Zogby: Yeah. No, I, I guess I'm just trying to understand it and if Trump is looking like he's keeping at least one promise, it's the promise of, at least the, he ran on America first we know from our polling that was according to independent voters, that was the strength of the Republican party today, was that they put Americans first. So you go to the UN I think he made it [00:20:00] pretty clear, that he was more interested the interest of America. Under his leadership, and not so much with the UN and with the G seven and with the European Union thought. but I still stand by what I said about the larger picture the, there's just a, failure of leadership for a great deal of the world and so much, I'm gonna say something very controversial. much that from my vantage point, and, I'm no fan of Vladimir Putin and President Xi, I'm not a fan of really any leader. but, they look more strategic. If you look at Western leadership versus Eurasian leadership, they look more forward thinking and, strategic than the West do.

John Zogby: [00:21:00] A topic for another time.

Jeremy Zogby: Yeah,

John Zogby: dismal week. certainly that's how I see it. Have a good next week.

Jeremy Zogby: hopefully better.