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John Zogby: two prominent, Democratic figures saying that there needs to be a party schism, and that Carville, in, in fact, is saying, "We've got to separate from these Democratic socialists." And, that's a recipe for a party falling apart.

Jeremy Zogby: overall 55% of Americans overall say that America will remain united in five years. At 55%, that's not good.

John Zogby: Among other things, we're witnessing the collapse of the two political parties.

John Zogby: It's Friday, July the 3rd, and welcome to "The Zogby Report." I'm John Zogby, and I'm here, as always, with my son and the managing partner of our polling firm, John Zogby Strategies.

Jeremy Zogby: Hey, Dad. you doing this week?

Jeremy Zogby: I'm doing pretty good. How about yourself?

John Zogby: Good. of course, it's July 3rd. It's [00:01:00] 2026. It's the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. And yes, I do have some thoughts. And my thoughts are going to focus more on the Democrats and what I see as a very troubling trend. And it begins like this. First of all, I was, I, I did a television interview earlier this morning, and the question I was asked is, "Why do the Democrats hate America?"

John Zogby: And I said, "That's really an overstatement." I said, "The way things look, we have to parse this. There is America the ideal, which is almost universally accepted, and there's the United States of America, which is a nation that has its own self-interests, its own [00:02:00] policies, in the world, and frankly, it angers and enrages a lot of people worldwide and in this country as well, and particularly these days, Democrats, because there's a Republican administration and because, our policies both domestically and i- in foreign nations are, alienating a lot of people."

John Zogby: So I said, "To be sure, if it comes to the notion of America, I think there's profound disillusionment and disappointment. When it comes to the United States of America and its policies in the Middle East, perhaps its policies in Europe, Greenland, Venezuela, more importantly, tariffs and, high inflation, then, there's anger and rage."[00:03:00]

John Zogby: And so I don't think we can paint a broad sweep with the word hate. And frankly, one of the things that I've learned over the years, we pollsters going back to '72 with Gallup coined that phrase, is the nation headed in the right direction or off on the wrong track. That was always a good barometer and measurement of the incumbent or the incumbent party, but today it's so intensely partisan.

John Zogby: So basically today you have more Democrats who are disaffected by the country and by the presidency, but just a few years ago it was the Republicans who were more likely to say wrong track on the president than the, incumbent party. The second point I wanna make is dangerous, and that is that, there [00:04:00] are a number of Democratic socialists, as who are being elected, AOC and Rashida, Tlaib, and, Z- Zoran Mamdani and so on, and now you're winning races, in Seattle and in Denver and so on.

John Zogby: And the biggest threat is not communism or hating the country. The biggest threat now is y- you have establishment Democratic figures in New York who are warning against a, a socialist takeover. Democrats are talking about a socialist takeover. They're talking about a danger to the United States.

John Zogby: They're talking about antisemitism and anti-Israel on the rise. And I think worst of all, we've heard thus far [00:05:00] anyway, most loudly from Rahm Emanuel and James Carville, two prominent, Democratic figures saying that there needs to be a party schism, and that Carville, in, in fact, is saying, "We've got to separate from these Democratic socialists."

John Zogby: And, that's a recipe for a party falling apart. Now, I'll just end by saying whether a party falls apart or doesn't fall apart, is, may happen and it may not be a bad thing. But this troubling trend beginning with the election of 2000, culminating really with the election of 2020, where you have a whole other side that won't accept the results of an election if my guy loses, is, [00:06:00] a, recipe, and as much as I hate to use the word existential, it's an existential threat to democracy.

John Zogby: fundamentally, very last point, if one side can't accept the results of an election, then you can't have a functioning democracy. And so that's what's bothering me, in a semi-long-winded way, what's bothering me this July 4th

Jeremy Zogby: you summed it up well. Of course, and I've written about this, I believe I've mentioned it in the podcast a lot This nation, since the Constitution was formed, in terms of voter turnout, has been through six cycles, and we're in the sixth cycle of voter turnout now, which is important, right? Because voter turnout if elections are the engine, [00:07:00] voter turnout is the fuel, and what type of fuel and how much fuel is going to characterize that age of each cycle. The fuel, powering this voter turnout election cycle, the sixth, is, hyper-partisanship, hyper-polarization. And a unique feature of hyper-polarization is exactly that word that you mentioned, existential. And this started in 2004, and I'm making the case that going into the midterm, which is amazing, that 2026, I think, is going to be, I strongly believe is going to be the apex, of the hyper-polarization, sixth cycle that we're in. And more specifically, that means the intensity is likely to come to a boiling point.

Jeremy Zogby: Just when you thought 2016 or [00:08:00] 2020 or the election of 2024 was that, no, I think this is it. And again, that, that is existential, because there is the fear that the other side winning spells out the demise of our country. Now, I wanna get at what you said as far as, that question. Now I, have to say that if I were asked that question, "Why do Democrats hate America?"

Jeremy Zogby: I would have a surprising answer, although I will tell you I am 100% convinced I have the correct answer. And the correct answer is both woke Democrats and MAGA Republicans hate this country. They do. because number one, they have the inability to look at themselves in the mirror [00:09:00] and criticize themselves and see fault in themselves and see fault in their leadership.

Jeremy Zogby: When they lose elections, they don't look in the mirror and say, "What did we do wrong?" No, there is no mirror. It's they just flip it around and say, "They're the ones who are wrong. We're the ones who write or right. Everything would be fine." But woke has gone far left, as you've said, Democratic socialist, maybe even in some cases outright communist, and MAGA has gone far right, and I would say fascist.

Jeremy Zogby: And look, when I say fascist- It's not the kind of fascism you think. I don't mean you as in you, dad. But we are mistaken because we don't study correctly political ideologies. We are mistaken that fascism is Hitler and Nazism. That was a brand of fascism. Actually, fascism was created by Mussolini, and race had nothing to do with [00:10:00] it.

Jeremy Zogby: that was Hitler's contribution. Fascism was a model that was called corporatism, which the state orchestrated private capital. The state orchestrated industry, and they basically told it what to do, but they left it in private hands, and it was a merger of state and corporations. Communism was outright seizing industrial capacity and handing it over to the party.

Jeremy Zogby: When you understand that, this is very key, you understand that fascism and communism are really first cousins and maybe even brother and sister. And there were some astute political scientists in the 1930s and '40s who said, "You may as well just call it socialism, or you may as well just call it totalitarianism."

Jeremy Zogby: Because whether you live in Stalin's Russia or L- Lenin's Russia or Hitler's [00:11:00] Nazi Germany, it was really bad, and if you criticized the government, you were going to get jailed, disappeared, or even killed. And what I'm saying is, yeah, if you're on MAGA, and make no mistake about it, those fascist elements of merging corporations and state like this, just look at the tech companies.

Jeremy Zogby: Or whether you're a Democratic socialist and look at how they want to control wages and control prices and say, "We'll or- we'll orchestrate wh- how everything should be cost. We'll take from the wealthy, and we'll give to the poor." at the end of the day, it's going to do the same thing. It's going to destroy society, and it's going to attack the other side.

Jeremy Zogby: So the reality is, we live in a country now where the far left Often the Democratic socialists and the far-right MAGA both hate this country because the [00:12:00] Founding Fathers wanted nothing to do with any of that stuff. That's not, that, that, wasn't freedom, okay? So we've lost our ways, and we have basically two sides of the same coin on the opposite polar spectrums who really are just destroying the traditions of this country.

Jeremy Zogby: and I think until a critical mass see that, then we're going to be stuck in this hyperpolarization age. And the last thing I'll say is I have some polling data. Because here we are celebrating 250 years of this nation's birth, and I asked a question in our last national poll to the degree which Americans think we'll be or remain united in five years.

Jeremy Zogby: And so here is the question asking one generation later, 20 years, whether Americans believe that the United States will remain united. And I'm just gonna stick [00:13:00] to overall. I don't wanna get into party, but it's pretty shocking. So when, we asked about five years from now, 55%, what we would call normally in an election a strong majority.

Jeremy Zogby: I don't wanna use that term strong majority in this case, 'cause only 55% of voters saying we'll re- remain united in five years is pretty pathetic. But then when we jump the timeframe to 20 years, it dips to 47.7%. 48%, less than half of American voters say that they expect the country to remain united. And I'm specific what I mean by united, the United States remaining united, less than half, 48%, not even a majority.

Jeremy Zogby: And so if we want to reverse that trend, then I think we need to understand political ideologies better and understand that fascism, corporatism, the merger of [00:14:00] state and corporate powers, and democratic socialism, communism, that is the state controlling, how things should be done in the economy, really end up in the same direction, and that's a bad direction for all Americans, and that's happened throughout history time and again.

Jeremy Zogby: So my advice is we need to start looking in the mirror and stop projecting at the enemy and see where we're failing and see where our shortcomings are, because that's how a democracy first and foremost functions.

John Zogby: that is a confirmation of really what we've been thinking and saying right along.

John Zogby: We're in the middle of a revolution. This is much larger than the United States of, America. This is a global revolution, and no need to get into it, in any details, because we've talked about it so much. But suffice it to say that our [00:15:00] institutions just are no longer prepared and no longer credible enough to deal with the mass of technology-induced and s- social fallout-induced, problems that we have today. So with that said, I'm, among other things, we're witnessing the collapse of the two political parties. And that. The- they are collapsing. What we're seeing in real time here, are factions, two major factions in the Republican Party, two major factions in the Democratic Party, and this is a turning point.

John Zogby: They're not going to accept each other, and so we're talking about a period of time, I don't know how long it is, maybe it's five years, maybe it's the 20 years that you, just mentioned, that it's gonna take that long to put it back together [00:16:00] again. And what's fascinating, and, you just raised this as well is that th- those forces that are trying very hard to hold on to what we have, see it slipping away, are going to be a real obstacle and stumbling block.

John Zogby: Let's go with billionaires in Silicon Valley and the marriage with the federal government in, Washington. let's go with, the establishments. Now, Rahm Emanuel and James Carville, you don't get more establishment than that, trying to beat back, whether you agree or disagree, but beat back a growing movement, within the Democratic Party that is actually winning elections.

John Zogby: So we're in for a rough road. we will-- I am the optimist in the room, and remain that way. and I [00:17:00] don't know how long it'll take, maybe not even in my lifetime, but what we're experiencing right now is what a revolution is all about. That's my final word. Happy Fourth.

Jeremy Zogby: we can wish each other happy Fourth. I've long held the belief that time is not linear. Time is cyclical like everything else in this world. And the key is, that there are a lot of books written about that, written about s- seasonal history, cyclical history, and the one that I'm actually reading right now to navigate all of this is the one I think that people should be con- consider reading.

Jeremy Zogby: It's, not ideological at all. It's called The Fourth Turning, and we're in the fourth turning, which means we're in winter, which means spring is actually coming. We just have to get through winter. But read this book if you are interested, and understand that we've been here before. [00:18:00] The Great Depression was a fourth turning, the Civil War was a fourth turning, and the American Revolution was a fourth turning, and they all happen about 80 something years apart from each other, only to get us through that next season, which inevitably is spring.

Jeremy Zogby: So spring is coming. We just need to get through the winter first

John Zogby: Okay. I will share next time, my two or three book reading list. but, for now I think we covered a lot in a short period of time. And so I mean it, Happy Fourth. I'm gonna have a Happy Fourth 'cause I'm gonna be

John Zogby: together with you, you guys

Jeremy Zogby: Yeah, fireworks and grilling and the lakeside

John Zogby: Have a good week

Jeremy Zogby: Take care

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